training for climbs

[cure]

i recently purchased a new bike, with a standard double, and 12-27 cassette. here in nyc its not necessary to have anything in the lower range...but i was also thinking, what if i move or travel to some place with lots of hills / mountains? how can i do that? im sure its possible to do it with a double but would be very painful and out of the saddle majority of the time.

im wondering what kind of training techniques there are that i can start out with? should i think about getting a compact crank instead? i basically want to keep what i have but train so i can also use it in the hills if needed.

thanks

[Morocco Mole]

i recently purchased a new bike, with a standard double, and 12-27 cassette. here in nyc its not necessary to have anything in the lower range...but i was also thinking, what if i move or travel to some place with lots of hills / mountains? how can i do that? im sure its possible to do it with a double but would be very painful and out of the saddle majority of the time.

im wondering what kind of training techniques there are that i can start out with? should i think about getting a compact crank instead? i basically want to keep what i have but train so i can also use it in the hills if needed.

thanks

Climbing is all about power\weight ratio, technique also plays a part but you can work on that when you get to the hills. 12-27 is a pretty useful range with a double for most hills but again it's hard to say without knowing more about your current abilities and where you are planning to ride. You will probably find that your cadence will be lower when climbing than where you currently ride so that is something you can simulate on an indoor trainer, just use a larger gear to bring your cadence down and use something to raise your front wheel. More than anything, just work on raising your FTP, most decent climbs will be from 20 minutes - hour, so targeting your critical power over than interval will help your climbing. Have you done a fitness test with the iBike, can you share your results, weight etc

Cheers
Jim

[coachboyd]

Morocco nailed it. The better you're watts/kg ratio, the better you will climb.
To achieve this you can either keep the same power and lower your weight, or increase your sustained power and keep the same weight (doing both is optimal).

One of the best ways to increase your sustainable power (FTP power) is to do longer intervals at just below your FTP power. This is called training in the sweet spot and is an excellent workout.

However, in NYC it may be tough to find an area where you can ride 20minutes without hitting a traffic light or having to brake. I know Central Park is pretty popular and the loop around is right at 6 miles so that might be your best bet.

[cure]

thank you so much for the advice. i believe i took the FTP a year or 2 ago, and i was level 6. I haven't done one since, but i believe i have improved a little? i was thinking about doing a test this weekend in NJ, Wateredge. its a great 16 mile, non stop, hills and decents. i went last week and was so much fun that i forgot to do calibrations and such....

my weight is between 130-135lbs, height 5'9", on the FTP it says not to add any additional weight to my own weight? can you explain why we dont? theres wind conditions, weight of bike... will wind effect the FTP? after doing the FTP i will try some intervals up the same hills. when doing this test, should i haul out like the cops are chasing me? like on decents i should also be cranking it? i dont really want to go faster than 30mph the ride is right next to a cliff...and car speed limits are only 25 mph... i remember fernando (member here) suggested a location in brooklyn though.

thanks

[KenS]

For the FTP test I prefer a steady uphill climb. My climb of choice is a steady 4% over about 7km which takes me just over 20 minutes. With a steady climb its easier to maintain constant power output. I treat like a time trial and aim to collapse right at the end where, fortunately, the climb ends and flattens out at the coffee shop.
A bit too far away for you though.

[racerfern]

There's a place in Brooklyn called Floyd Bennet Field or whatever it is nowadays (I'm remembering 25 years ago). It's an old defense base with tons of airport runways. Car clubs use it for auto-crossing and cycling clubs have crits there. Lots of room, dead flat and you do laps so you'll be tailwind one way and headwind the other. It's probably easier to maintain constant power in a tailwind.

You should easily be able to get in 20 minutes of absolute all out effort. Careful, if you start out too hard you'll blow up. Coach Boyd has covered this many times in various posts. If you finish the twenty minutes with the thought that you might have been able to a bit harder, then you'll have to rest for a day or two and try it again. There's an art to it for sure.

Testing FTP on a steady hill is easier for a number of reasons. You generally don't have changing winds or winds that drastically affect you. You see the task at hand. On roads that have undulations it's difficult to maintain power on the down side and you tend to power up too hard on the climbing side. That said, your FTP for climbing will probably yield a higher number than your FTP on flatish open roads.

Check out http://nyvelocity.com/ you make find useful info there.

[Velocomp]

In south Florida there is a magnificent place north of Palm Beach called Jupiter Island where there are next to no cars, and no stoplights. Even though it is very level (the island runs north-south and is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean and the intracoastal waterway) it is a great place for a fitness test. It is 10 miles long so, even at a 30 mph rate (!), you can cycle for 20 minutes.

[racerfern]

Oh yeah! Here's a spot I use for a good FTP test. It's 6.3 miles of absolute constant climbing. Not a killer at a 5.1% average but non-stop. http://app.strava.com/rides/169685#2274002

And here's one with 16.8 miles of nearly constant climbing with an average 5.6% average. http://app.strava.com/rides/187991
This isn't as good for a test because the elevation starts to take its toll above 4000'

BTW, Strava.com is a pretty cool site since it will find other riders that have done the same rides or even sections of rides. It's a reality check in case you think you're getting fast.

[coachboyd]

my weight is between 130-135lbs, height 5'9", on the FTP it says not to add any additional weight to my own weight? can you explain why we dont?

thanks

For FTP purposes we are not asking the weight to calculate power. We are using the weight to establish your w/kg. Since w/kg is your actual body weight, this is the number you must import. The fitness levels are all based off w/kg.

[cure]

hi, thanks for the tips, i did a FTP at central park. before ride i set my weight as of now, 132. then started cranking it out. some portions where slight descents so i went to the big gears and went as hard as i could. at the end, i nearly passed out, i got level 7.

what i dont understand still...is the weight ratio to power ratio. im sorry, im a bit slow. could i have put more power by going a lot faster if i didnt have my 2 24oz water bottles? it was a little breezy this morning, does wind play a factor too? i guess the reason why im really doubtful about the rating is that 7 was not what i was expecting, more like 5 or 6...

if none of the factors come into play during the ftp, how did it know that i was probably pushing way harder with the extra weight when i could have went a lot faster if i didnt? speaking of speed, that faster i go, the higher the power right? at least in my logical thinking...

and on a side note, when not pedaling down a hill, the power does not go to zero, again...(this was my later post) now that i put in ftp, should i do a cal ride?

sorry about all the questions!

[KenS]

You need to make sure that your Total Weight (bike plus rider plus gear) is correct in Setup so the iBike can calculate your power accurately at any time. This should include your full water bottles. As long as this is right and everything is properly calibrated the iBike will calculate your power taking into account the wind, your speed, the total weight you are moving so you don't need to worry about those. (Mind you, the extra weight of the full bottles only amounts to a couple of percent difference)

Now, when you do a Fit Test the ibike asks you for your body weight only. This is different to your Total Weight and is what you see on your bathroom scales. The iBike only needs this to calculate your Watts per Kilogram when you do a Fit Test.

So with the right Total weight and calibrations the iBike works out how much power you were producing during the fit test.
It then divides that by your Body only weight. That says how fit you are - no matter what bike you are on or what else you might be carrying.

Gee, if I could rate a level 7 I wouldn't be questioning it - I'd be bragging

[cure]

ken,

thank goodness, on my setup weight i had already put my weight+ bike+accessories!
that makes much more sense. i completely forgot about the setup weight was already logged...and FTP was working off of it.

but now my only concern would be why when cruising down hill without pedaling shows power, but it should be zero?

thank you!

[racerfern]

How much power? If you're soft pedaling (no effort on the pedals) it's OK to see up to 50w at 20ish mph. If you're seeing hundreds of watts you should take a look at your profile. Remember to always make sure your wind cal is good when checking downhill watts.

[cure]

my watts are well over 50, more in the 100-200+. i did a wind call and waited til it was zero-ish (during that time it was jumping everywhere like 10-20...took a while til it went to zero, then i pressed and it popped back way out of range, is it supposed to be like that? i covered the wind port tight too) after that i rode 40 miles still seeing the same results, but afterwards it was 0-50 and below cruising at 18 mph. lately my readings have been sporadic...not really a constant.

if i did a tilt but not a wind cal BEFORE my FTP, are my wattages incorrect? will i have to do another FTP?

another strange thing, when downloading files, my one ride was split into 5 separate files, before never problem, was there a setting i pushed?

[lorduintah]

One major reason for multiple files is a low battery. The iBike is smart enough to see low volts and tries to salvage as much as it can. This can also lead to sporadic data everywhere.

Tom

[cure]

so the most logical thing to do is

1. change to new battery
2. do tilt
3. do wind cal
4. do ftp
5. maybe do a cal ride?

then i should be good?

[lorduintah]

If you had a good cal, then the battery change is all - you will need to update the time/date. You can do a tilt and then at the end of the ride upload from the iBike your profile, then copy it back to the iBike, this effectively puts an update tilt correction in. Most of the time your tilt is taken care of in a setup before riding or during the first 5 minutes. By uploading a good long ride adjusted tilt, you may be able to reduce the offset of the first 5 minutes.

Wind scaling can be a reiterative process and can modify your CdA on the way to a set of good wind values. As pointed out by others, coasting at 20 mph and seeing your watts hover around zero will indicate that your CdA is in order. Otherwise you will need to either recal or adjust you CdA up or down. For most, this is tweaking in the last bit of correction and is not always mandated.

I believe it is rruf that has a pretty good description, among others, on adjusting the CdA and scaling.


Tom

[cure]

wow, that seems very overwhelming to me...i know this stuff is super complex too! anyways i decided to do a brand new FTP.

please let me know if this combo is fine. first, i'm going to do a tilt and wind cal at home. take it to the park and do the FTP. afterward i may or may not do a cal ride.

returning home, on the software i will go to Profiles>Edit Profiles> "Extract from Ibike". (now much real question) with that downloaded, i resend this back to my ibike? (why is this step so essential again? i thought once you do calibration it will save under that profile?)

at another date, if and when i do my cal ride, i'd do exactly the same as above? so its like a "i feed you, you feed me" concept?

thank you!

[cure]

hello again.

so this morning i executed the calibration in the order i listed as well as a cal ride afterwards. if all is true on my previous post i hope its good now...i'm not sure if my FTP is accurate because i had to stop due to a marathon, but my FTP was more or less the same as before. after cal ride my power is zero when coasting at anytime (good thing!). please look at my profile and see if this is good to go. thank you once again.

[lorduintah]

Cal rides should not be necessary very often. If it is a change of seasons and you are wearing different clothes, change the tires on your bike, maybe even a big difference in the temperature - you might want to run a new cal ride.

Remember the protocol: Zero the wind, tilt calibration, cal ride (better to ride more than two miles each way.) Cal rides should be done right after or within 30 minutes of the two previous operations. Coast Downs help getting a better CdA and friction.

A later ride and coasting can allow you to further adjust the wind scaling from an out/back ride and the coasting may help tune the CdA. You are likely to find that the estimate CdA from your riding position and height get you really close to a good value by just using the calculation in the iBike.

Tom

[lorduintah]

Your Profile looks reasonable to me.

Things you probably want to post next time:

Your height and where you ride on the bike for your cal - hoods, drops, etc.

Post your cal ride file - this is more useful than the profile as Velocomp can look at the details to see if any unusual factors may be influencing your profile.

At some point, Velocomp has promised to provide a secrets of calibration by Coach Boyd. There are a number of profiles that he has adjusted that leave us wondering. The hope is that his intuitive style can be cloned into a piece of software that, as a wizard, can do magic to your rides.

[cure]

tom,

thank you for the response. i did the cal ride in central park this morning.

height : 5'9"
weight: 132lbs

riding on hoods.

this was done AFTER the ftp ride, does this influence my FTP?

cal ride attached.

[lorduintah]

Cure -

This ride appears to have a significant wind scaling issue - all of it shows as a head wind.

I get a WS of about 0.677 if I adjust the ride speed average against the wind speed average. (I think this is line with the previous WS you had earlier.

WS(new) = WS(old) *(Avg speed/Avg wind)^2 = 1.195 * .577 = .677 --- Your Aero will drop to 0.27, again that seems a better value for your stature.

Did you zero your wind before you started the cal ride?

Again - you can continue to ride - even if the screen in the cal ride says to turn back. As long as you maintain your speed > 8mph you will continue to log "out" miles. When you slow down, the iBike notes that you are turning around for the back portion. You should try to go more than two miles total.

Different calibration values will affect your FTP. You can always review this by applying a post ride profile - if you will be changing or evaluating any of the calibration settings.

[cure]

i dont think my profile from before was correct then either... i did zero on the wind cal before i left my house. but actually it was jumping everywhere, it was never a steady number, i literally plugged the wind port with my thumb! i waited too long and it went back to the main screen...i know there was no wind in my house and my thumb made it air tight. never settled at 0^0. if this was ok, "i pressed it right when i saw 0^0. but it jumped to a random number right after"... i dont know how long i'd have to actually wait...


*edit* apparently i didn't know how to do it right the first time. all i had to do was push the button, then check again if it was zero'ed in right? by how much difference do you think it would affect my FTP or profile... if my wind cal was off? can you tell by look at the file?

i had lots of head wind because nobody was in front of me, right? or was there more head wind than there should be? there was wind but not windy, i believe about 10mph or so.

[lorduintah]

Cure -

On a ride that is to be an out and back - you go in one direction for some miles, then turn around an retrace your path in the other direction. On a moderately calm day - no big gusts, for example - you overall wind speed should be the same as your riding speed - if you have a good wind scaling. You should not see a headwind from all directions. It may feel like a headwind, but as you ride on a calm day, the air is not moving with you and feels like it is always in your face. But when you turn around and retrace, the average wind speed will nullify. So on a calm day, the sensor should be able to find the null more easily.

If you continue to have an unstable wind offset - contact Velocomp.

Don't plug the wind port - even the pressure from your thumb is enough to bias the sensor. Wild variations are not good. A couple of tenths is not abnormal, however, as long as it varies in a plus/minus reading. You iBike should be roughly at riding temperature, so if it is cold, the Ibike should be too. If you have a weak battery, the wind offset may be unstable - check your battery - even consider a new one, just to see if the readings calm down.

[cure]

thanks tom

i'll have to another fresh test. and will post again here when i have the data.

my battery read 281 when i left, plus its like 78 deg inside. i understand now that you mentioned about pressure and temp differences. i guess i'll have to just ride outside in the cold without doing a calibration until device is as cold as outdoors. though after awhile my screen blinks low batt. after my FTP. in any case i'll try to get the accurate reading one way or the other. i want to train properly and accurately because that was my original concern (now i don't know when thats going to be)...now theres so many other concerns. plus, i dont know why of all seasons this became an issue during winter when the winds aren't as calm as summer...

if my readings are still not accurate, i will contact Velocomp.

[lorduintah]

Yes -

If it get cool, the battery can appear to age very fast. It is a chemical reaction making the voltage and lower temps slow that process and thus lower the voltage/current delivery capability. A fresh battery can buy you some time. You may end up with a couple batteries in your pocket or saddle pack so that you get a little more out of them. Don't throw them away - they get better in warmer weather and you can get the lifetime out of them then.

[cure]

basically what is best is to get my wind cal down right? THEN i can do my ftp?

so after doing a ride cal on a 'calm' day i should see my file with wheel speed and wind speed with little to no offset right? if it appears incorrect, that means when i did a wind cal i screwed something up?

the only way i can get an accurate score on the ftp is to have an accurate wind cal (ride cal) FIRST. then when i check and it looks good at home i can go back out to do my ftp? i wish there was a video on this

[cure]

i have a general question. how do we know if we did a good wind cal or ride cal? like tilt it says it tells you its a good tilt. is this process necessary only because i dont want to do a wind cal and go home and its wrong and it influenced my ride cal. wondering why the ibike cant automatically adjust on wind conditions or temperature?

[Morocco Mole]

i have a general question. how do we know if we did a good wind cal or ride cal? like tilt it says it tells you its a good tilt. is this process necessary only because i dont want to do a wind cal and go home and its wrong and it influenced my ride cal. wondering why the ibike cant automatically adjust on wind conditions or temperature?

Someone else may have a better idea, but for me, the only way I got confidence in my CAL rides was to do multiple over a week or two and compare them. You are looking for consistency in the Wind Scaling and Tilt values that are displayed when you "Download Coast-downs and Calibration Ride" as follows

screen_pic2.jpg (47.26 KiB) Viewed 22816 times

If the numbers are pretty close from Multiple CAL rides then you can be confident in the numbers. I actually take an average of the Wind Scaling values and use that to build a custom profile. Riding Tilt (%) should not really change if you are doing your CALS on the same course, which I would also recommend.

Also, don't get this confused with the Tilt and Wind Offset calculations you can do before each ride. Once you have a good CAL ride and profile you should not need to do that again.

Cheers