Garmin 820 signal dropouts

[Darkstar]

Not strictly a Powerpod issue, but one that I know that at least one other person has had it. I'm exploring it further in the Garmin forums, but I thought it might be useful to share it here too. https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.ph ... -820/page5

(John, your thoughts would be interesting although I'd understand an "it's not the Powerpod's fault" too. There appears to be a user level assertion that it's the Garmin 820's antenna (rather weak) that's the cause). However it only appears to be users of Stages power meters & Powerpods who seem to have complained.

I have the Powerpod mounted under the Garmin, in an out-front mount. I get intermittent drops in the power reception, despite there being 2" between the 2 devices.
You can see the dropouts on the lowest trace (N.B. recording registration is not perfect).

Garmin 820 Powerpod power dropouts

Garmin-Powerpod_small.jpg (147.83 KiB) Viewed 15727 times

[Velocomp]

Hmm...

Crank-based power meters have two challenges: 1) their antennas are rotating; 2) they are physically distant from the receiver (Garmin).

PowerPod has neither of these issues.

I notice that, as I look at your graph, the Garmin's cadence sensor data is dropping out, and these are the places where there are major deviations in watts. It might be that the Garmin forces power to zero when cadence is zero.

You might want to check your cadence sensor, to be certain it is functioning properly.

[Darkstar]

I'll try a different battery (it's a magnetless Garmin sensor).
There are times when the power reading on the head unit it "---W" so I don't think that it's a simple matter of showing 0W when the cadence is 0.

[albafar]

As I'm from time to time experiencing exactly the same issue I'm eagerly awaiting Darkstar's feedback on battery change...... I've tried to ride with Bluetooth on and off, with or withourt phone in the pocket but hasn't been able to identify a specifik pattern unfortunately.

[Velocomp]

We continue to investigate this:

1) Darkstar, please post your .ibr file that has both the PowerPod and Garmin information in it (you posted a screen shot of power meter comparison (PMC) for your .ibr file). Albafar, if you have a .ibr ride file with Garmin information, please post that one, too!

2) The Darkstar PMC screen shot shows, very clearly, that cadence drops out of the Garmin whenever power drops out of the Garmin (mile 4.6, 9.7, 22.6). Further, the PMC shows that both cadence and power are being properly recorded in the PP ride file.

3) Note that the Garmin receives power data from PP sensor, and cadence data from the Garmin cadence sensor. Because both power and cadence data have simultaneous dropouts in the Garmin file, then the problem MUST be in the Garmin unit, because the Garmin is receiving signals from two distinctly different ANT sensors. That is, the PowerPod has zero influence on the way the Garmin receives cadence data!

4) If, somehow, the PowerPod was "interfering" with cadence signals transmitted by the Garmin sensor, then the PP cadence data would ALSO be corrupted. The PP cadence data is not corrupted; therefore, PP is not interfering with Garmin cadence transmission.

5) Darkstar and albafar, what is the current version of firmware for your Garmin? When did you last upgrade the Garmin FW?

[albafar]

My Garmin Firmware isthe latest - 6.50

I've attached the PP .ibr file that seems without issues from Apr 19th. As well as a tcx file from the Garmin.

[Velocomp]

My Garmin Firmware isthe latest - 6.50

I've attached the PP .ibr file that seems without issues from Apr 19th. As well as a tcx file from the Garmin.

Is the tcx file your PP power, as recorded by your Garmin? Or are you using a DFPM on your bike?

[Darkstar]

We continue to investigate this:

1) Darkstar, please post your .ibr file that has both the PowerPod and Garmin information in it (you posted a screen shot of power meter comparison (PMC) for your .ibr file). Albafar, if you have a .ibr ride file with Garmin information, please post that one, too!

2) The Darkstar PMC screen shot shows, very clearly, that cadence drops out of the Garmin whenever power drops out of the Garmin (mile 4.6, 9.7, 22.6). Further, the PMC shows that both cadence and power are being properly recorded in the PP ride file.

3) Note that the Garmin receives power data from PP sensor, and cadence data from the Garmin cadence sensor. Because both power and cadence data have simultaneous dropouts in the Garmin file, then the problem MUST be in the Garmin unit, because the Garmin is receiving signals from two distinctly different ANT sensors. That is, the PowerPod has zero influence on the way the Garmin receives cadence data!

4) If, somehow, the PowerPod was "interfering" with cadence signals transmitted by the Garmin sensor, then the PP cadence data would ALSO be corrupted. The PP cadence data is not corrupted; therefore, PP is not interfering with Garmin cadence transmission.

5) Darkstar and albafar, what is the current version of firmware for your Garmin? When did you last upgrade the Garmin FW?

1) I've got a very good example, from a commute home this evening. I'd prefer not to put my home address on the forum, but I have your email address - I'll send you a copy
2 &3) I agree. The ride tonight has cadence in the Garmin at times with no power, so it's not a consistent pattern
4) I'm working on the Garmin side of the problem too & have some ANT+ TX logs (shared with someone who should tell me what they mean)
5) Garmin FW was bang up to date from about 3 weeks ago, when I got the unit (i.e. 6.50)

[albafar]

My Garmin Firmware isthe latest - 6.50

I've attached the PP .ibr file that seems without issues from Apr 19th. As well as a tcx file from the Garmin.

Is the tcx file your PP power, as recorded by your Garmin? Or are you using a DFPM on your bike?

No DFPM - it's the PP recorded by the Garmin

[Velocomp]

My Garmin Firmware isthe latest - 6.50

I've attached the PP .ibr file that seems without issues from Apr 19th. As well as a tcx file from the Garmin.

Is the tcx file your PP power, as recorded by your Garmin? Or are you using a DFPM on your bike?

No DFPM - it's the PP recorded by the Garmin

Please email PowerPod and Garmin .tcx file to jhamann@velocomp.com

[Velocomp]

We have ordered a Garmin 820, to see if we can reproduce this problem.

We will provide an update as soon as possible.

[romi]

I noticed similar issues regarding "--W" versus "0 W" using my Garmin 820. So I'm keep my eyes on this thread.

As details, my sensor is a Bontrager Combo (Only ANT+) and I have only the ANT+ version of PP.

Yesterday I upgraded the 820 to the latest firmware (7.00). I do not know if the problem still occur because the update was done after my last ride where I noticed the "--W" issue.

According to Garmin, this are the only changes made from version 6.50 to 7.00:
- Added support for Varia UT lights, including a new light control page.
- Indoor cycling Activity Profiles now turn bike lights off by default.
- Improved automatic zooming logic on the map.
- Improved the heading data field to show cardinal directions instead of degrees when paired to Varia Vision.
- Fixed an issue that could cause Bluetooth disconnects.

The last one could be interesting in this context...

[Velocomp]

For those of you who are experiencing this problem, two questions:

1) Are you using a PowerPod BLE (PP will say "BLE" on its side, or you will have purchased a PP BLE key)?

2) Are you connecting to your Garmin in BLE or in ANT mode?

Please let us know...

[romi]

My PP is only an ANT+ version and I did not purchased a BLE key.
My only BLE connection is between Garmin 820 and my phone.
The connections: sensors to PP, PP to Garmin and sensors to Garmin are on ANT+

[Velocomp]

My PP is only an ANT+ version and I did not purchased a BLE key.
My only BLE connection is between Garmin 820 and my phone.
The connections: sensors to PP, PP to Garmin and sensors to Garmin are on ANT+

This is helpful. We will begin our own testing today...

[romi]

I will keep you up do date with my next ride but it will be in the weekend if is a good weather.

As I told you, Garmin released a new upgrade for Edge 820 (my unit was already upgraded to 7.00) and I will keep my eyes on my power values like Chris Froome!

If you accept a suggestion, do not update yet your Garmin 820 test unit and try the tests with a version prior to 7.00 (the newest one) because my last reported issue was when the Garmin had the 6.50 firmware version.

You can find for download all the 820 firmware versions (In fact for all Garmin Edge firmware) from here:
http://gawisp.com/perry/edge/

The following procedure is for Garmin Edge 510 units but I'm sure that is working also for 820

1. Download this firmware (ec.: Edge510_500.gcd) and rename it to gupdate.gcd
2. Connect your Edge 510 to your computer via USB cable.
3. Copy gupdate.gcd to Garmin folder on your Edge 510
4. Unplug USB cable and turn on your Edge 510
5. The firmware will automatically start to be installed

[Velocomp]

I will keep you up do date with my next ride but it will be in the weekend if is a good weather.

As I told you, Garmin released a new upgrade for Edge 820 (my unit was already upgraded to 7.00) and I will keep my eyes on my power values like Chris Froome!

If you accept a suggestion, do not update yet your Garmin 820 test unit and try the tests with a version prior to 7.00 (the newest one) because my last reported issue was when the Garmin had the 6.50 firmware version.

You can find for download all the 820 firmware versions (In fact for all Garmin Edge firmware) from here:
http://gawisp.com/perry/edge/

The following procedure is for Garmin Edge 510 units but I'm sure that is working also for 820

1. Download this firmware (ec.: Edge510_500.gcd) and rename it to gupdate.gcd
2. Connect your Edge 510 to your computer via USB cable.
3. Copy gupdate.gcd to Garmin folder on your Edge 510
4. Unplug USB cable and turn on your Edge 510
5. The firmware will automatically start to be installed

Yes, I will start with whatever FW is in my 820 when it arrives.

I will also have a Garmin 810 on my bike, as well as a Newton.

If there is a problem one of these devices will see it!

Stay tuned...

[Darkstar]

I also have only ANT+, although IIRC I have a model that would accept a BLE key if I needed it.

My Garmin is on 7.0 & dropped power from the whole of the first 20km ride of the 200k I did on Saturday. Rebooted the Garmin & everything seemed to go fine for the rest of the day.

It could be a random startup related Garmin error, but the thought did occur to me that when I begin to ride normally I will wake the sensors after I wake the garmin (hangover from my garmin 500, which was not exactly transparent about which sensors were detected unless you watched the pop up notifications).
When I rebooted the 820 midway through the ride the sensor & PP were already awake & broadcasting.
I've not ridden again since - & won't get a chance until the weekend - but this might just be an avenue worth considering.

[Velocomp]

I just received my 820.

It has FW 5.2 in it!!!

Testing to follow soon...

[Velocomp]

First ride, Garmin 820, FW 5.20

No dropouts, no problems.

I see no point in testing 5.20, since the problems reported here are with 6.50.

I've updated to 7.00

Darkstar's comment is interesting. If, after rebooting his Garmin, the Garmin received PP data without problems, then by definition the problem is with the Garmin, not the PP.

The problem in this thread concerns ANT sensors. We've been making ANT power meters for 10 years now. We've changed nothing.

By the way, I have 6 ANT power meters on my bike, one ANT speed sensor, one ANT cadence sensor, one ANT combined speed/cadence sensor, three BLE power sensors, and one BLE receiver, so there are a LOT of opportunities for the ANT and BLE signals to become confused.

While it's entertaining to speculate the problem reported is with PP, I strongly suspect that is not the case.

But we will continue our investigation.

[Darkstar]

It's definitely an intermittent problem. Keep trying

Here's the first 13 mile stretch of my ride on Saturday.

JB-Garmin.jpg (73.06 KiB) Viewed 15570 times

JB-PP.jpg (108.04 KiB) Viewed 15570 times

You can see that the power recorded in the Garmin after the reboot is... more realistic than before (You can spot the feed stops & the disastrous puncture stop too)

JB_Garmin2.jpg (49.11 KiB) Viewed 15570 times

[Velocomp]

This is much bigger than us...

https://forums.garmin.com/archive/index ... 62731.html

[Velocomp]

I have now done 4 hours of riding with the following configuration:

6 ANT+ power meters on my bike

3 BLE power meters on my bike

2 ANT+ speed sensors

2 ANT+ cadence sensors

1 BLE speed sensor

1 BLE cadence sensor

3 ANT+ bike computers

1 Garmin 820, running FW 7.00

1 BLE-equipped iPhone (to receive data from my PowerPod BLE)

As I am sure you can figure out from the above, there is a TON of opportunity for wireless signals to be messed-up on my bike!!!

I configured the Garmin 820 to receive ANT+ data from my PowerPod ANT/BLE. The same PowerPod sent BLE data to my smartphone.

I did NOT configure the 820 to send any BLE data to any device.

PowerPod BLE data was received without any problem.

I did not, at any time in my 4 hours of riding, observe any power dropouts on my 820.

After 4 hours of riding, I can say with 100% confidence that the PowerPod is working properly. I can also say that my 820 had ZERO dropouts from power signals received by the PowerPod.

What does this mean?

Well, there are 6 pages of complaints on the Garmin forum, regarding power dropout problems with the 820. 5 ½ of those pages concern products other than ours.

Folks, if there is a problem with the 820, it is not because of PowerPod.