Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post Reply
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

Where can I find learnings on how to read/understand/etc. the functions of the advanced tab within Analyze? I am getting spoiled by the Peaks' folks and how they blog subject matter with graphs and explaination to what their tool can do.

For instance, when I look at my advanced tilt setting from yesterday's ride (elev/offset/tilt set before ride) it shows a before correction of my tilt going from 0 to -600 (see link below). What does this mean and what caused my tilt to go to -600 (I just rode, didn't lay the bike down and we don't have those kind of mountains in Houston :shock: )? Then the correction shows a straight line. Is there a cheat sheet that explains in words and pictorial all the advance settings?


http://www.sugarcycles.com/photos/showp ... 91&cat=504

Kevin
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by racerfern »

OK, here goes. Magically, the iBike software is capable of figuring out if your tilt calibration and zeroing was setup correctly or not. In your particular case, your iBike was grossly tilted downward. IOW, on perfectly level ground, your iBike was showing significant negative tilt. Who knows, maybe -.5% or more. This may have been because it was not zeroed properly or perhaps it was bumped and knocked off its correct setting at the start of the ride.

When you are back on the main display screen there is a small oval shaped button on the left. Click and hold the button to show the changes in results prior to analysis and then after applying corrections.

Notice that the slope is consistent. If you end up hitting a huge bump or otherwise knocking the tilt askew mid ride, you would see a sudden and significant change in direction of the slope line in the top graph.

The bottom graph shows the resulting changes after the analysis is applied. In your case, this would mean that the power output you saw when you got home and analyzed the ride was substantially higher than what you thought you were doing on the road.

You need to look at your tilt calibration and possibly the tightness of the mount itself. Later on when I get home, I will post a picture of what some of my rides look like. They are generally in the -50 to +50 range. Then after analysis the numbers will match more closely to the numbers actually seen on the ride.
Fernando
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

Fernando,

Reading others posts on unit placement (cranking down the screws) in the past made me double/quadriple check movement with my unit. Granted I suspect there are issues there because I have been testing different bars and my "banjo" pad is about history. Not really sure what to use next: off to home depot to find something.... :?:

I accept the soundness of your reply, it is just that I am doing tilts/offsets in my garage so as to sterilize the environment as much as possible. Even double checking my tilt during the 15min unit acclimation period. Results don't vary I am at or near 0.0 Putting physical force on the unit to try and turn it is nill.

Furthermore, I don't see any high vibration in the graph. I don't use a VRK, the unit is on my bars, and some of my ride is over chip and seal plus a few very bumpy brick crossings that rattle my fillings.

Just funny how the slop just nose dives from the beginning for 55min then levels off for 15min then continues a dive along the same angle as the first 50min. I do remember around the 55min mark I turn and had about 10min into a nasty head wind, but not sure how that would level out the curve. Also worth noting is the correction is stable along 0 until this 55min section then the correction is not as smooth until the after 1.10min.

Thanks for the reply!

Kevin
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
travispape
Site Admin
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:52 am
Location: Durham, NC

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by travispape »

Fernando's mostly got it. That -600 ft is simply how far you would have descended in your 1hr 23min ride if you were to believe the slope reading from the iBike as modified by your profile. The point to add to what Fernando wrote is that the problem could be the tilt calibration that you did before you went out for your calibration rides--the coast-downs and 4 mile ride.

Not only is it important to get your pre-ride tilt calibration done correctly, it also needs to be done the same way as when you did the tilt calibration before you did your cds and 4 mi ride. If this tilt correction in your screenshot is not what you normally find, then you only had a faulty tilt calibration for this particular ride; however, if this tilt correction is typical of what you usually find in the advanced window, then that means the tilt calibration that you did before you did your coastdowns & 4 mi ride was probably faulty. The other possibility is that both of your tilt calibrations were good but that you used a different method for doing your tilt calibration. For example, if you did one while on the bike and the other while off. (I'm an advocate of always doing your tilt calibrations while off the bike.)

What is going on is that your iBike ends up tilting down a little when you get on your bike. This is the "riding tilt" and it is due to flexing in the steering bearings, stem, and bars when you put your weight on the bike and squishing of the tires. Maybe some of it is also due to the fork flexing forward a little (increasing your wheel base slightly) when you get on the bike. Anyway, it is a phenomenon that everyone experiences to varying degrees. I've seen riding tilts up to -1% or more for heavy riders.

It is important to note that this riding tilt is accounted for in the fric coef in the iBike. Fric accounts for both the riding tilt and the rolling resistance, so even before the analysis features of iBike2 came along you could get accurate power readings despite this riding tilt phenomenon.

Whenever you download a ride and iBike2 finds the matching profile for it, iBike2 subtracts this riding tilt from your ride data so that you should see a valid slope signal that comes close to matching what it should be based on the elevation profile of the ride even before doing the tilt correction. This correction does not affect your power reading since it was already accounted for in your fric coef--it is simply removing the riding tilt measured during your calibration rides. However, if after subtracting the riding tilt from the ride there is still a disparity between the slope-based profile and the altimeter-based profile, iBike2 assumes that you didn't have a good tilt calibration for that particular ride and modifies the slope to get it to match what it has to be based on the altimeter data. This correction does come with an impact to your power data since a faulty tilt cal causes an error in your power calculation.

I hope this helps you understand what is going on a little better. Let me know if you still have questions.

Travis
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by racerfern »

Kevin,

I mentioned movement of the unit as a possibility. But the consistent downward slope indicates that you started out with the wrong tilt calibration. Let me take it a step further.

I used to end up with consistent downward slopes like yours (though not quite as bad). Part of the reason was that my stem flexed under my weight and constantly indicated .2 to .3 tenths less than the actual tilt. I resolved this by "cheating" the setup. I have a spot on the floor that is dead on level. I place the bike with the iBike on it and go to calibrate tilt screen, press the button and wait. Then when I get told to turn the iBike 180 degrees, I do not. I slide a .050" thick business card size block under the rear wheel, hold the bike steady and press the button again.

The result is that I end up with about a .1 to .2 upward indication even though I am on a level surface. With me on the bike in my normal riding position, this yields an uncorrected graph that is very close to zero. Mind you, this is not approved or recommended by iBike. It was just my solution to my situation. This might work for you and it might not.

I hope this helps explain things a bit.
Fernando
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by racerfern »

Kevin,

Please note that the above reply was posted just as Travis was posting his. He is far more knowledgeable than me and can drill down to the root of a problem pretty quickly along with knowing the technicalities. I am more of a seat of the pants type of guy.
Fernando
travispape
Site Admin
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:52 am
Location: Durham, NC

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by travispape »

racerfern wrote:Then when I get told to turn the iBike 180 degrees, I do not. I slide a .050" thick business card size block under the rear wheel, hold the bike steady and press the button again.

The result is that I end up with about a .1 to .2 upward indication even though I am on a level surface. With me on the bike in my normal riding position, this yields an uncorrected graph that is very close to zero. Mind you, this is not approved or recommended by iBike. It was just my solution to my situation.
Fernando, that method isn't really necessary; however, it is fine as long as you do it the same way every time, especially before you do your calibration rides.

The key to getting a flat green line in the top graph of the advanced window is to do your tilt cal the same way every time. It might be a non-conventional method like yours, but consistancy is what matters.

A potential advantage to the way you are doing your tilt cal is that you might end up with slightly more accurate slope on the road (you can tell if this is the case if you consistantly get a riding tilt near 0% out of your cd/4mi ride processing); however, since you used a method where you are not turning the bike 180 deg, you are stuck doing your tilt calibrations on the same spot all the time. If you want to keep using your block, you could still use it with the 180 deg rotate, that way you could take your block with you in your car and do tilt calibrations anywhere you start a ride. What you would do is do the first half without the block and then turn the bike and add the block for the second half. Simpler yet, you could use a block that is half the height and put it under the front wheel both times.

However, none of this is necessary. The reason you started getting a flatter green line isn't because you started using the block but because you got a better tilt cal before you did your cd/4mi rides and have stuck to the same tilt cal method thereafter.

The best thing to do is simply do a normal, off-the-bike, 180deg-turn, no-blocks-involved, tilt cal before you do your calibration ride. Each day thereafter, do a quick check on your floor marks to see if you need to redo the tilt cal. In my case for my spot on the garage floor, if I see +0.3% (or -0.3% if the bike is facing the other way) I know I'm good to go without a new tilt cal.

Travis
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

I pretty much follow the iBike/Travis way, with the exception lately that I moved into the garage to get out of windy conditions outside for my offset. I just need to mark my spot in the garage.

Richard and co have my files, maybe they see the same downward slope in last week's rides. Rain has me on the computrainer today/tomorrow. I will have another data set after Sat/Sun long rides. Hopefully I hear back from support before then as to issues they see.

I need to post my cda and crr figures as they seem quite low, but having done 2x CDs the last month due to changing stems/bars the values are staying consistent.

Kevin
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by racerfern »

A potential advantage to the way you are doing your tilt cal is that you might end up with slightly more accurate slope on the road
Travis,

Definitely, a more accurate slope and consequently power output numbers more in line with the work I am actually doing (especially intervals) is the reason I go through this unique process. It's more comforting to know that the numbers you are seeing are the numbers you are doing.

Thanks for the pointers. I may actually go out and do a real tilt calibration with a new set of coastdowns.
Fernando
CJS
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:46 am
Location: Auburn, WA
Contact:

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by CJS »

Question related to Tilt... If you are on a ride and hit an unexpected bump hard enough that it results in a slight roll of the bars, besides torquing down your bars so this won't happen, is it recommended or favorable to stop, re-do a tilt calib in mid ride or should you leave it alone and trust the post-ride analysis will correct things? Obviously if you don't touch it you will be staring at incorrect power reading for the remainder of the workout. Any thoughts?
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

good question, for example, I dropped a chain Sunday during a race up a 15% hill and couldn't unclip in time, thus falling to the right. The fall tweaked my bars (torqued to spec) upwards. It also bent my rear D hanger so I only rode another 100yrds, but had I completed the last lap would the software fixed this issue (as I would have kept racing regardless of the handlebar position)? IF not, then obv. I would have had 4 laps of data to analyze.
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
travispape
Site Admin
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:52 am
Location: Durham, NC

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by travispape »

racerfern wrote:
A potential advantage to the way you are doing your tilt cal is that you might end up with slightly more accurate slope on the road
Travis,

Definitely, a more accurate slope and consequently power output numbers more in line with the work I am actually doing (especially intervals) is the reason I go through this unique process. It's more comforting to know that the numbers you are seeing are the numbers you are doing.

Thanks for the pointers. I may actually go out and do a real tilt calibration with a new set of coastdowns.
Fernando,

Acutally, it is only the slope number that would be affected--the power would not change and would be fine. And we are only talking about a small amount of benefit for the on-the-road slope reading--not worth the trouble.

Everybody should just stop reading right here, but if you want more of the details... :-)

Let me be clear what I'm talking about. Let's say that tilt cal method A would just be to do your tilt cals as recommended, off the bike with a 180 deg turn. Method B would be to always put a small block under the front tire when doing the tilt cal to try to compensate for riding tilt. Whichever method you choose, you would have to stick to the same method all the time for that profile.

The only differences between method A and B is that if you choose B, you will end up with a slighly smaller fric coef result and your slope readings on the road would be slightly more accurate. The power numbers that you get on the road would be not impacted. Whatever change you get in your slope reading is offset by the smaller fric cal number.

And regardless of whether you choose A or B, you will end up with the same results for both slope and power once you do the post-processing in iBike2. Once the profile is attached to the downloaded data, everything would be the same for the 2 methods: power, CdA, Crr, slope, everything.

So the only real benefit to using the block method for doing your tilt cal is for your on-the-road slope number to be slightly higher (specifically, by the amount of your riding tilt).

Travis
travispape
Site Admin
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:52 am
Location: Durham, NC

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by travispape »

CJS wrote:Question related to Tilt... If you are on a ride and hit an unexpected bump hard enough that it results in a slight roll of the bars, besides torquing down your bars so this won't happen, is it recommended or favorable to stop, re-do a tilt calib in mid ride or should you leave it alone and trust the post-ride analysis will correct things? Obviously if you don't touch it you will be staring at incorrect power reading for the remainder of the workout. Any thoughts?
If you hit a bump hard enough to rotate your iBike on the bars, yes, it would be fine to stop and redo your tilt calibration. If you don't redo the tilt cal, the power number you see on the road will be off so it might be worth the trouble.

The post-ride analysis will work perfectly fine either way. If you don't bother with redoing the tilt cal after the bump, your power number will be corrected by iBike2.

Travis
Gregory Au
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:09 am

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by Gregory Au »

Is it possible to make the firmware compensate for the corrections that Ibike 2win does so we do not have to 'post-process' the data?
travispape
Site Admin
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:52 am
Location: Durham, NC

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by travispape »

Gregory Au wrote:Is it possible to make the firmware compensate for the corrections that Ibike 2win does so we do not have to 'post-process' the data?
If the processing power of your PC is this, then the processing power in the iBike is proportionally this.

But, what you ask for is the general trend that we are pursuing.
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

travispape wrote:...then the processing power in the iBike is proportionally this....
So where are you going to mount your iBike on it?
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

travispape wrote:......Whenever you download a ride and iBike2 finds the matching profile for it, iBike2 subtracts this riding tilt from your ride data so that you should see a valid slope signal that comes close to matching what it should be based on the elevation profile of the ride even before doing the tilt correction. This correction does not affect your power reading since it was already accounted for in your fric coef--it is simply removing the riding tilt measured during your calibration rides. However, if after subtracting the riding tilt from the ride there is still a disparity between the slope-based profile and the altimeter-based profile, iBike2 assumes that you didn't have a good tilt calibration for that particular ride and modifies the slope to get it to match what it has to be based on the altimeter data. This correction does come with an impact to your power data since a faulty tilt cal causes an error in your power calculation.Travis
So I think I might be doing something out of whack: I am at 69' sea level. Ibike varies based on temp and blah blah blah. It got to a point that I just zero'd it out each time, The last 3 rides I put back the correct reading of 69, then did my offset and tilt.

Travis, are you saying in the quote above that I need to use the same altimeter settings on every CD/4m and ride? Otherwise I get the weird readings, albeit all other nuances done correctly? My last 3 rides have the tilt starting at 0 and straight line down for the length of the ride, i.e., -600'. Just like in my first post above. I checked the mount and it is cranked down.
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
travispape
Site Admin
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:52 am
Location: Durham, NC

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by travispape »

leonsrocketcar wrote:So I think I might be doing something out of whack: I am at 69' sea level. Ibike varies based on temp and blah blah blah. It got to a point that I just zero'd it out each time, The last 3 rides I put back the correct reading of 69, then did my offset and tilt.

Travis, are you saying in the quote above that I need to use the same altimeter settings on every CD/4m and ride? Otherwise I get the weird readings, albeit all other nuances done correctly?
I'm not sure if I understand what you are asking. If you are talking about setting the starting elevation, it is good to get the set in the right ballpark, but it is not critically important to the calculations. What is more important is to check and redo as necessary the tilt cal and the wind offset.
leonsrocketcar wrote:My last 3 rides have the tilt starting at 0 and straight line down for the length of the ride, i.e., -600'. Just like in my first post above. I checked the mount and it is cranked down.
You should find that that -600' is a function of how far you ride. If each of your last 3 rides were the same distance, then that means each had the same tilt error. The screenshot your link shows an 1h 25m ride. I'll guestimate that to be 26 miles, which works out to a -0.44% tilt error.

Are you seeing approximately a -0.4% to -0.5% tilt error for each of your rides?
Do you redo (or at least verify) your tilt calibration before each ride?
Do you have a profile that is getting attached to your rides?

If all answers are yes, what I am saying is that it is likely that your profile has a bad riding tilt. That's the common denominator.

For a given rider, ride position, bike, and mount location, the riding tilt is about the same every day. For numbers, I weigh about 175 lbs, ride a Spec Tarmac in the drops, and have a handlebar mount. My riding tilt is about -0.6% for each ride including my calibration rides. If I were to look at the raw slope reading coming out of the iBike and compare it to the actual known profile, I would always find that the average slope is too low by -0.6% +/- 0.2. Since I did a good job doing my tilt calibration before my coastdowns & 4-mi ride, my profile shows that -0.6%. Whenever I download a ride from the iBike and the iBike2 software attaches the appropriate profile, that -0.6% riding tilt gets subtracted from the slope for the ride. So if the day's ride was an out-and-back and the raw slope average was -0.53%, what I see in the advanced tilt window is a green line in the top plot that goes up mildly with a tilt error of only 0.07% after the -0.6% riding tilt in the profile get subtracted from the day's slope data. For the next 3 rides, I might get raw slopes of -0.71%, -0.52%, and -0.61%. After the profile gets attached, those work out to -0.11%, 0.08%, and -0.01% respectively. All of these are typical numbers for me. In each case, I would expect to see the bottom green plot be about 0.0% after the tilt correction for these out-and-back rides.

Now if I messed up the tilt calibration on the day that I did my calibration rides and a riding tilt of -0.16% got stored in my profile, then those three rides above with average raw slopes of -0.71%, -0.52%, and -0.61% would end up being -0.55%, -0.36%, and -0.45% top green lines and eventually I would start wondering why does my top green line always goes down about -0.44%. The answer would be because I screwed up the tilt calibration on the day that I did my calibration rides.

Travis
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by racerfern »

I posted something similar to this in another thread but it is far more appropriate here. On Saturday, I took the time to do 20 coastdowns. I discarded two. Then I did a four mile out/back ride. On Sunday I did a 47 mile road with some pretty rough roads in downtown LA then up into the surrounding hills.

After downloading my ride, I had a huge smile on my face because the post analysis wattage matched the shown amounts within 3 watts! The slope issue was non-existent. I can now see in my profile that there is a "-0.461%" riding tilt correction built into the profile. Awesome work guys. Thanks.
Attachments
iBike_03_30_2008_0748_47_Miles.csv
iBike_03_30_2008_0748_47_Miles.csv
Picture0006.jpg (187.41 KiB) Viewed 15403 times
Fernando
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

Yep, that is the explaination I was looking for. Just alittle confused by my set up procedures that is all. I went through new 3M/crank down procedure; tilt/offset; 11 CDs and 4mi. Afterwards, my Crr and cda looked high (as RIchard pointed out), but my tilt slope was up and my PE and wattage read outs were about right. Then the next 3 rides my slope has gone down without any blips. So after reading your explaination/example and answering yes to 2 of 3 queries, I will take this oppty to do some adjustments on my bars and repeat the mount install; carefully set my tilt/wind OS; then go do CDs and 4M. Then back home to see results and send to IBike, then off to ride and test, then back to iBike2 assign latest profile and hope for best.
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
User avatar
racerfern
Posts: 1356
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Baldwin, NY
Contact:

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by racerfern »

leonsrocketcar wrote:Then back home to see results and send to IBike, then off to ride and test, then back to iBike2 assign latest profile and hope for best.
I did this same thing. Except I didn't go out for another set of tests after the CDs and the 4mi. ride. I exported the profile to save it as a separate file and I sent it to the iBike on the spot as the current profile. That way when I got back from a ride I "Get Weather" for the area I was in and then analyze tilt with the existing profile. It's one less step (I think).

Assuming that my latest calibration effort would be my best after all these discussions I was prepared to do a long typical road ride. So far so good as can be seen in the tilt slope I just posted.

@Travis: I no longer play my little game with the block under the wheel to cheat the tilt. Thank you for your input and recommendations. Now I just need to produce more power! :roll:
Fernando
User avatar
leonsrocketcar
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:13 am
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Understanding Analyze Advanced settings: Tilt

Post by leonsrocketcar »

Thanks for spotting that I had an extra step. Not sure what I was thinking, other than going to bed. Your explaination is what I plan on doing today after work. The wind has been way down since Monday, so it will be a good day for the 4mi.

What I was describing above is what I did on Sat am before the group ride. I did my CD/4m. Then rode to the shop. Then a 2hr hammerfest. Then wrench all day. Then home to see the results of the profile. So what I was trying to do is put time in a few hours to get my cals set rather than taking 2 days or in this case, 3 rides later and meaningless data (yesterday I avg a whopping 34w in 90min of riding :evil: ).

Just for the fun of it, I need to go back and review the +/- tilt cals Travis mentioned so I get a feel of what mine was/is/should be.
Kevin
Sugar Cycles
http://www.SugarCycles.com
Post Reply